Timing Chain Failures and Oil Filters

BarneyB · Aug 18, 2022

pol327 said:
I am going to pipe in on this one.

"To be honest I'm certain that you have over serviced your vehicle. Gone are the days of 3000mile service intervals. Most new vehicles are in the 10-15000 mile range or 6-12 months. Your early model vehicle most likely has the duplex chain and they are well known for achieving high km without the excessive servicing."

Most new vehicles have those ridiculous service intervals of 10 to 15000 km to make them more appealing to consumers as it reduces service costs, this is nothing more than a sales pitch.

I have spent half a life time doing engine oil analysis monitoring and working a wide range of diesel machinery and vehicles. At 5000 km or 250 hours the engine oil has reached saturation point for safely neutralizing and or holding combustion by-products. At this point the oil should be drained and the oil filters replaced.

Will the oil keep lubricating after 5000 km, of course it will, it will keep lubricating until the oil pump can no longer pick it up . However those by-products it was designed to hold will begin to have adverse wear implications, deposits will adhere to internal surfaces and acids forming will start to attack parts, then the end result is accelerated wear.

In other words the cost of 5000 km service intervals is extremely cheap insurance.

Yep. I would agree with this 100%
Don't ever trust anything a car maker offers ....including longer service intervals than the competition.

Oil analysis is actually a pretty deep science. There's lots of performance indicators, chemical indicators, lubrication abilities (or dis-abilities).

Oils have a TBN (Total Base Number)
This number is highest when the oil is brand new and represents the oils ability to absorb acidic combustion products and neutralize them. As the oil ages, this TBN falls. And when it's used up, your oil will drift across to the wrong side of the acid/base scale.
There are a few variables that contribute to how fast this happens, but I can assure you, without multi-stage filtration (both element & centrifuge) running your oil past 10,000kms in a diesel engine is not a good idea.
(EDIT...and filtration won't fully restore TBN anyway)

Side note - my 2008 ST-X VSK is at 93,000 kms on original chains (I believe). For some reason I'm having trouble sleeping lately....

Smonk · Aug 19, 2022

Potentially 5000km service intervals would be suited to a vehicle used in high traffic conditions.
Iv also seen first hand the oil saturation performance equal at 10000km as it was at 5000km.

pol327 said:
I am going to pipe in on this one.

"To be honest I'm certain that you have over serviced your vehicle. Gone are the days of 3000mile service intervals. Most new vehicles are in the 10-15000 mile range or 6-12 months. Your early model vehicle most likely has the duplex chain and they are well known for achieving high km without the excessive servicing."

Most new vehicles have those ridiculous service intervals of 10 to 15000 km to make them more appealing to consumers as it reduces service costs, this is nothing more than a sales pitch.

I have spent half a life time doing engine oil analysis monitoring and working a wide range of diesel machinery and vehicles. At 5000 km or 250 hours the engine oil has reached saturation point for safely neutralizing and or holding combustion by-products. At this point the oil should be drained and the oil filters replaced.

Will the oil keep lubricating after 5000 km, of course it will, it will keep lubricating until the oil pump can no longer pick it up . However those by-products it was designed to hold will begin to have adverse wear implications, deposits will adhere to internal surfaces and acids forming will start to attack parts, then the end result is accelerated wear.

In other words the cost of 5000 km service intervals is extremely cheap insurance.

Smonk · Aug 19, 2022

BarneyB said:
Yep. I would agree with this 100%
Don't ever trust anything a car maker offers ....including longer service intervals than the competition.

Oil analysis is actually a pretty deep science. There's lots of performance indicators, chemical indicators, lubrication abilities (or dis-abilities).

Oils have a TBN (Total Base Number)
This number is highest when the oil is brand new and represents the oils ability to absorb acidic combustion products and neutralize them. As the oil ages, this TBN falls. And when it's used up, your oil will drift across to the wrong side of the acid/base scale.
There are a few variables that contribute to how fast this happens, but I can assure you, without multi-stage filtration (both element & centrifuge) running your oil past 10,000kms in a diesel engine is not a good idea.
(EDIT...and filtration won't fully restore TBN anyway)

Side note - my 2008 ST-X VSK is at 93,000 kms on original chains (I believe). For some reason I'm having trouble sleeping lately....

If you rub genuine mann filters you can sleep easy!
In any case it will start to sound horrible before it let's you down.

Jardsoooo · Aug 21, 2022

Having had a top tensioner fail in my D40 - now drive a D22 - I've given this a lot of thought.

What I never see in these conversations is mention of the tensioner spring.

It actually a strong spring that maintains the tension - on start up at least - then the oil pressure kicks in.

I seems pretty clear to me that the spring tension fails thus insufficient tension till the oil pressure kicks in.

In this scenario a filter with better performing anti drainback valve may help spring performance longevity by getting pressure up earlier.

This filter will certainly help to quiet the rattle once the spring is underperforming.

Having changed the oil some 35 to 40 times in my Navara's since 2010 I can state with certainty that a genuine or Mann - same thing - filter will get the pressure up significantly faster.

This a good thing. Will it improve the life of the top tensioner- I dont know.

To ask the same question another way - is it that the spring fails entirely independently of oil pressure ? Dont know. The spring does fail tho.

Does the tensioner fail cause the chain fail ? Dont know that either.

AdzeeB · Aug 30, 2022

After working as a workshop mechanic in WA I came to the conclusion that oil viscosity and brand mean a lot...
I have v9x and put a full legend X system on so it has open up the oil range from being C4 only to 5w/40 and 10w/40 semi synthetic and hence you can start over coming noisy chain issues and valve noise etc....

jimjam · Nov 16, 2022

I have a 2009 d22 stx, 221,000kms on original chains.
I had the oil cooler blow and when it was at the mechanics he changed to a ryco oil filter, I've noticed since then there is a chain rattle on cold starts/ when its been sitting for an hour or more.
I am up for an oil change, I will change to genuine filter and 10w 40 oil and report back with any change in noise.
If this does not fix I will be replacing just the top chain tensioner itself as I cant budget 3k+ at the moment for a full kit, if this has any change i will report back also, but who knows maybe even if it is the tensioner at fault the chain or guides are too far gone anyway.

Old.Tony · Nov 30, 2022

Make sure the mechanic does a full engine flush as well. It's possible that the rattle is caused by a reduced lubrication because stuff is caught in the oil passages.

jimjam · Dec 1, 2022

Old.Tony said:
Make sure the mechanic does a full engine flush as well. It's possible that the rattle is caused by a reduced lubrication because stuff is caught in the oil passages.

I usually do all of the work myself unless I cant find time or dont have the tools.
Is it ok to do a proper engine flush with a higher km engine?
Ive heard this can actually bring up issues due to cleaning it too well and unblocking bad seals/gaskets.
Im new to deisels and this is my first deisel and first 4x4, I am no mechanic either but I have some mechanical knowledge.
I have got the filter and oil, will be trying to get around to doing it over the weekend or next week sometime.

Old.Tony · Dec 1, 2022

jimjam said:
I usually do all of the work myself unless I cant find time or dont have the tools.
Is it ok to do a proper engine flush with a higher km engine?
Ive heard this can actually bring up issues due to cleaning it too well and unblocking bad seals/gaskets.
Im new to deisels and this is my first deisel and first 4x4, I am no mechanic either but I have some mechanical knowledge.
I have got the filter and oil, will be trying to get around to doing it over the weekend or next week sometime.

My engine has 380,000km on it. Going for an engine flush hopefully next week. I'm not concerned about it at all.

Carlito · Dec 7, 2022

Can anyone confirm that Nissan oil filters are made by MANN? That's what I've been using and I have the start up rattles

Old.Tony · Dec 7, 2022

There's no one supplier so there's no clear answer. Nissan won't say.

The suspected manufacturers are Beck Arnley, Bosch, Mann, FRAM, Denso, Mahle Tennex and Tsuchiya. These are guesses, one person reported that their Nissan-branded filter looked extremely like a Beck Arnley.

If you want a big surprise, watch this:

jimjam · Dec 7, 2022

Old.Tony said:
There's no one supplier so there's no clear answer. Nissan won't say.

The suspected manufacturers are Beck Arnley, Bosch, Mann, FRAM, Denso, Mahle Tennex and Tsuchiya. These are guesses, one person reported that their Nissan-branded filter looked extremely like a Beck Arnley.

If you want a big surprise, watch this:

Ive got a genuine Nissan filter and it has MANN written on it and also Nissan, got it from the dealership in my town.

jimjam · Dec 7, 2022

Old.Tony said:
There's no one supplier so there's no clear answer. Nissan won't say.

The suspected manufacturers are Beck Arnley, Bosch, Mann, FRAM, Denso, Mahle Tennex and Tsuchiya. These are guesses, one person reported that their Nissan-branded filter looked extremely like a Beck Arnley.

If you want a big surprise, watch this:

Camionpilot · Dec 7, 2022

Old.Tony said:
There's no one supplier so there's no clear answer. Nissan won't say.

The suspected manufacturers are Beck Arnley, Bosch, Mann, FRAM, Denso, Mahle Tennex and Tsuchiya. These are guesses, one person reported that their Nissan-branded filter looked extremely like a Beck Arnley.

If you want a big surprise, watch this:

Break pads is even more scary ...and they are available at most auto discount stores and online ..............!!!!!

Old.Tony · Dec 7, 2022

Camionpilot said:
Break pads is even more scary ...and they are available at most auto discount stores and online ..............!!!!!

Oh brake pads are a nightmare. They come in 3 main flavours:

* Utter shit pads. Usually very inexpensive.
* "Organic" pads
* Sintered pads

Utter shit: if you get a set of these on your car you'll know it. Dust absolutely everywhere. Chunks of crap in the brake material that gouge the discs. Usually no brand name, a couple of $ a set. Just so you're aware, the absolute most important component on your car isn't the turbocharger, the steering wheel or even the interior light and ankle straps above the passenger seat. It's the brakes. Invest in them like your life depends on them.

Organic - purchased primarily to save the discs, the pads wear faster than the disc so you use more pads (they are cheaper than sintered) and wear out the discs more slowly. Caveat: I put some on my Honda Goldwing. I could make one emergency stop without trouble. However, if I had to do a second stop while the disc was still hot from the first (a couple of minutes), the bike would NOT stop. In fairness, it's heavy: 400kg of bike, 100kg of me, 30kg of load, and 250kg of trailer behind it.

Sintered - these come in variations of metallic content (usually copper), they're excellent at heat transfer but they're tough on discs (compared to organic). They usually produce black brake dust in copious amounts. Emergency stop after emergency stop and they should just keep on braking, but they'll eat discs especially if they get grit in them.

Really long extended braking (Mt Ousley, Bulli Pass, Mt Victoria, Bells Line at Kurrajong, Thunderbolts Way, Cunninghams Gap, Alpine Way - just to name a few - these hills can cause problems (particularly if towing) even with sintered pads. They changed the signs on Thunderbolts Way to add "all towing vehicles should use low gear" and there's a good reason - cooked brakes can't stop you, and a couple of the steep hills have 45km/h bends at the bloody bottom!!!

Camionpilot · Dec 8, 2022

I know what you mean , i fitted Brembo pads and discs on my np300 a few months brake discs were ok but the pads are made in India , hope they are not bought in from one of the Pakistani fabricators [plenty of you tube vids ..bloody scary ..!!!] , i do seem to get a lot of brake dust , my truck is used privately and is nly loaded with my fridge and small tool box , hardest use it gets is i tow a box trailer with my 700cc quad in it around once a month so it has an easy life .

jimjam · Dec 27, 2022

After switching to genuine filter and penrite 5w40 (I chose 5w 40 instead of 10w 40 for better oil flow during cold startup) it has drastically reduced timing chain noise on startup.
Instead of 5-6 seconds to reach oil pressure its 2.5 to max 3 seconds, this seems to stop the worst part of the chatter.
I can say its not fixed as I can still make out the noise even though it's no where near as bad.
Next I will be replacing the top chain tensioner and visually inspecting the top chain.

jimjam · Dec 27, 2022

If its any worse than the top tensioner being the issue I doubt i will keep it, not worth 3.5k for the chain upgrade with all the other smaller issues the nav seems to have.

jimjam · Jan 3, 2023

After multiple cold starts i can say the rattle is all but gone, seems to still have a slightly different noise as oil pressure builds (all 2 seconds of it) but I wouldn't call it a rattle.
I will never go back to using aftermarket oil filters.

jimjam · Jan 6, 2023

Update: The noise is back same as before maybe slightly better but still the same. Guess last resort is the top tensioner, if that doesn't work im just going to have to hope it holds up until I have the money for the chain kit.

Timing Chain Failures and Oil Filters

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